E327 | Psychopaths in Business with Kevin Dutton
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In this conversation, Kevin Dutton explores the fascinating world of cognitive flexibility and how adaptability in decision-making can pave the way to success in business. Known for his groundbreaking work on psychopathy, Dr Kevin Dutton is a British psychologist now working down at the University of Adelaide in Australia. He’s the author of a number of books including, Flipnosis: The Art of Split Second Persuasion, Wisdom of Psychopaths, and A Good Psycho’s Guide to Success (co-authored with Andy McNabb).
Kevin shares his unique perspective on psychopathic traits, likening them to a mixing desk of personality settings. We’ll delve into his thoughts on “precision-engineered psychopathy,” the benefits of certain psychopathic traits in professions, and the crucial distinction between “good” and “bad” psychopaths. From humorous anecdotes to profound insights, this episode is packed with thought-provoking discussions. Whether you’re curious about how low empathy scores impact leadership or how Kevin’s fearless nature led him to the brink of risk-taking, this conversation promises to enlighten and entertain.
Takeaways
- Cognitive flexibility is crucial and the importance of adapting decision-making strategies.
- Precision-engineered Psychopathy can be advantageous in specific professions, from surgeons to CEOs.
- Decoupling emotion from behaviour in difficult conversations.
- Unpack the distinctions between harmful and beneficial psychopathic traits.
- Empathy types and their impact.
- Psychopath Quiz: Test where you fall on the psychopathy spectrum with Kevin’s personality test!
About Kevin Dutton
Professor Kevin Dutton, PhD, FBPsS, is one of the world’s foremost authorities on psychopaths. Having spent the last twenty years at the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, he was appointed in 2022 as Australia’s first Professor of the Public Understanding of Psychology at the University of Adelaide. He is a Fellow of the British Psychological Society.
Kevin is the author of the acclaimed bestsellers Flipnosis: The Art of Split-Second Persuasion, The Wisdom of Psychopaths: Lessons in Life from Saints, Spies and Serial Killers, The Good Psychopath’s Guide to Success (with Andy McNab), and Black and White Thinking: The Burden of a Binary Brain in a Complex World. The Wisdom of Psychopaths saw him awarded a ‘Best American Science and Nature Writing prize, and Black and White Thinking was nominated by the Big Ideas Club as one of the must-read non-fiction titles of 2021.
Kevin’s work has been translated worldwide into over twenty-five languages, and his writing and research have been featured in Scientific American, New Scientist, the Guardian, the Times, Psychology Today, the New York Times, the Wall St Journal, the Washington Post, Newsweek, Slate, USA Today among other publications. He regularly publishes in leading international scientific journals and speaks at conferences around the world.
Alongside his academic commitments, Kevin also consults in the elite sport, business, and military sectors and often appears on radio, TV, and podcasts. He also co-hosts the podcast Psycho Schizo Espresso with Iron Maiden front man, Bruce Dickinson.
Find out more about Kevin and his work on www.drkevindutton.com.
Follow Kevin Dutton
Books by Kevin Dutton
Flipnosis: The Art of Split-Second Persuasion
The Good Psychopath’s Guide to Success
Black and White Thinking: The Burden of a Binary Brain in a Complex World
Sorted!: The Good Psychopath’s Guide to Bossing Your Life
Book Recommendations
Switchcraft by Elaine Fox
Quick Fire Questions
Q: What drives you every day?
Kevin Dutton: My Mrs. dives me, mate. We’ve got a nice car. What drives me every day. I’m writing a new book at the moment and I do love the idea of communicating ideas. I’ve always been an ideas person and I love getting up very early in the morning, I do a lot of running, I do a lot of training.
So the first thing I do, I’m always up before 5:00, so I do an hour’s hours work, physical stuff. Then I crack on with the writing. So I love communicating. That’s what drives me. I’m also actually engaged in a challenge next year, so that’s driving me at the moment. I know it’s a quick fire question, but I’ll tell you very briefly.
So a mate of mine a few years ago done Lands end to John O’Groats. He done it for charity and I sponsored him. I don’t know why. It was a bit of a pub chat that got out of hand. I thought–Lands End, we all think it’s the southernmost point of the uk. Is it really? So I had a look and it turned out the southernmost point of the British Isles is a group of islands called Le Minkiere, which is south of Jersey and about 10k off the coast of France.
I thought, blimey, what’s the northernmost point? So you go from John O’Groats, you go through the Orkneys you go through the Shetlands and there’s a lump of rock about 200 meters across called Outstack, and it’s halfway to Norway. So I thought, wow, that’s the northernmost part. Who’s done the true South to North?
Forget Lands End of John O’Groves. Who’s done Le Minkiere to out Stack. No one’s even thought of it. So we’re doing it. We’re doing it in April, mate. So we’re rowing across the Channel, right, from. From Le Minkier to Pool. We’re cycling from Pool up to John O’Groats. We’re getting back in the ocean Rainbow.
We’re running up through the North Sea, the Orkney Sachettons. We’re going to do an amphibious landing on this lump of rock. I’ve been training at the moment, mate. I’ve been training for a year and a half, so that’s what’s driving me at the moment. But writing the new book and communicating. There you go. Very long, very long answer to a surefire question.
Q: What’s your genius?
Kevin Dutton: What isn’t my genius, mate? What is, what isn’t? Modesty. Modded modesty, probably. Yeah, yeah.
Q: What unpopular opinion do you hold?
Kevin Dutton: What unpopular opinion do I hold? Well, probably psychopaths are good. Psychopaths or psychopaths can be good. And it’s really interesting, actually, just to touch on that, when wisdom of psychopaths first come out, it was very controversial. People didn’t like it. And eventually I started winning the argument. When I made the point, I turned it around on people. I said, listen, if you talk about psychopaths as being like a clinical condition, you wouldn’t stereotype other clinical conditions like autism or depression or anxiety or anything like that, as all these people are bad.
What you’re doing when you talk about, you know, psychopaths as all being bad, you’re stereotyping people. And, you know, I’ve done a lot of work with. I did something called the Great British Psychopath Survey a few years ago, where I found out what most psychopathic British professions were.
CEOs came out as number one, by the way. It was probably not surprising, but you had people like surgeons, people in the advertising profession, all up there. So, you know, if you’re saying all psychopaths are bad, then the cardiothoracic surgeon is operating on your 3 year old kid and saving their lives or removing a brain tumour from your other half. You know, most of those people are high on the psychopathic spectrum, most of those surgeons.
So, you know, if you’re stereotyping them, what are you doing?
Q: What’s the most significant risk you’ve taken?
Kevin Dutton: Most significant risk I’ve taken. Coming down to Adelaide here was a bit of a risk, to be honest. That’s the first one. Do you know what? It’s a tricky one, that, for me, Dom, because we’re going back to the decathlon metaphor of Psychopathy. One of my strong events is fearlessness. I’ve never quite got fear, to be honest. So risk is like a funny one for me.
Q: And how many points do you score on your own survey?
Kevin Dutton: I’m quite high on the spectrum. I’ll tell you something, though, what stops me from getting on the medal podium of psychopathy. We talk.
Not being flippant, but we talked about it earlier, is the fact that I. I have a conscience. So when we’re going back to the firing people, I’ve got no problem being ruthless and tough, but it’s got to be fair. So I would never deliberately stick the knife into anybody. I would never deliberately belittle someone or I would never deliberately kind of, you know, steal ideas or that kind of thing, but I can be very competitive and I can be ruthless. So which is why I’m, you know, when we talk about the firing thing, I said, if you’re going to do it, do it. So they’re kind of my strong events in. In the psychopathy decathlon.
Q: What’s the most recent thing you’ve learned?
Kevin Dutton: Most recent skill I’ve acquired is actually to do with, I was telling you about the challenge, which I’m doing the south north thing. The most recent skill I’ve acquired is actually tying knots, which is actually a really good thing to learn. One of my real weak points is practical ability. I mean, I am the least technological…
I mean, it’s amazing I’m on here now. If you hadn’t sent me that link and basically told me just click on this, I would never have been here. So technological ability, practical ability is something I’m very, very weak on.
Q: What’s the biggest myth in business, do you reckon?
Kevin Dutton: The biggest myth in business is, I think, think that a nice guy always finishes last. I don’t think that’s necessarily true. I think it all depends on the kind of context that you’re in. And I think that sometimes, if you need to be good, as one SAS guy once told me, sometimes in order to clean up, you need to fight dirty. And I think one of the biggest myths in business is the idea that you’ve either got to be completely nasty or virtuous all the time in order to succeed.
I think it’s a little bit like two clubs in a golf bag. You need to bring them out on the right occasions and they need to work together. So I think one of the biggest myths is nice guys always finish last. I don’t think that’s always the case, but I sometimes. But I also know that actually you’ve got to be pretty ruthless at times to get into a position where you do good things, if that makes sense.
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